King Arthur

[Nick the Noodle]

Seems an appropriate topic for this forum.

Edited July 22, 2023 by tmcom
Excessive empty space

[britanica]

I remember learning about him in school and thinking "some of this doesn't add up!". I know there were a lot of things dealing with his history that have gotten out of place. I am going to watch this in a bit. Thanks for sharing it!

[Nick the Noodle]

46 minutes ago, britanica said:

I remember learning about him in school and thinking "some of this doesn't add up!". I know there were a lot of things dealing with his history that have gotten out of place. I am going to watch this in a bit. Thanks for sharing it!

Like many, I do have a theory, concerning both location and individual(s).  Personally I think Arthur is a title, not a name.  I will expand on it later.  Got a film to watch with my spogs.

[Nick the Noodle]

The problem with King Arthur is that there is nothing written about that person at that time.  This is completely important.
 

The one author that should be writing about him is Gildas.  Apparently, he did not do so because Arthur killed his brother.  

Gildas wrote De Excidio et Conquestu Britanniae.  It's rubbish as history.  OTOH, Geoffrey of Monmouth might be even worse when it comes to Arthur.

One person writing about Britain at the specific time was Procopius.  He was a Byzantine author that wrote about a 'Saxon' invasion of Germany and Denmark, by the British/English in the 6th century, because her suitor had decided to marry another.  The only written account by 'Saxons' invading another piece of land at this time, was the English invading Germanic lands, not England being invaded.

[Nick the Noodle]

Another major problem is where the Saxons came from?  Without a Saxon opponent, Arthurs story is pretty pointless.  Germanic(ish) tribes were certainly here before Rome conquered Britain, eg Atrebates and Belgae.  In fact that it was the fact that Julius Caesar heard that the Belgae had defeated the Britons, and he had beaten the European mainland Belgae, that prompted his invasion.  It failed, but that's another topic.

Certainly Frisians came to Britain during the climate change disaster around 200AD, that saw much of the Low Countries coastline collapse into the Channel.

Then we have the Roman sources themselves.  Rome did not name defensive lines after their enemies, but after the areas they protected.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saxon_Shore#/media/File:Litus_Saxonicum.png

 

 

[Truthseeker1]

I suspect Arthur was of Irish descent from armed bands invading Wales post the Roman pull-out.

I also think he set himself up as a leader to try and become a powerful leader in Wales and fought the Saxons once with a few other battles against other Welsh/ British/ Irish powerful tribes.

I also think Merlin was a military adviser rather than a leader or magician.

How this morphed into the later stories of Lancelot, Holy Grail, magic, fighting 12 major battles I think is down to romantic writers from later centuries in post Norman Britain.

It is doubtful we will ever know.

 

 

[britanica]

Our history is written by the victors and this cannot be disputed so there is a lot of things, and a lot of truths we will never know. This is why I think it is so important, especially now, for people to pay attention to what is happening and make document of it to pass down because as tech advances, especially with AI... so much more history will be lost!

[Nick the Noodle]

On 7/26/2023 at 12:27 AM, Truthseeker1 said:

I suspect Arthur was of Irish descent from armed bands invading Wales post the Roman pull-out.

I also think he set himself up as a leader to try and become a powerful leader in Wales and fought the Saxons once with a few other battles against other Welsh/ British/ Irish powerful tribes.

I also think Merlin was a military adviser rather than a leader or magician.

How this morphed into the later stories of Lancelot, Holy Grail, magic, fighting 12 major battles I think is down to romantic writers from later centuries in post Norman Britain.

It is doubtful we will ever know.

That is not the silliest idea I've heard.  Arthur's foster father was Sir Ector in the legend, and the medieval Welsh lords when youths, were often raised by their uncles.  Sir Ector equates to another legendary character, Cynyr Cainfarfog, and Irish lord of Caer Goch in Dyfed.  Dyfed was almost certainly under Irish control in the 5th century.  If the myth is at least partially true, Arthur's father may have be Irish, specifically from the Deisi tribe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynyr_Ceinfarfog

https://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/ector.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Déisi

Arthur's mother was called Eigyr.  In Welsh, that means chaste or pure, and suddenly we have a Christian link to Mary, mum of a certain famous figure.  That in turn casts doubt on the whole claimed parentage of Arthur.  

http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/ygerna.html